Monday, April 4, 2011

A comment on my last post, and my response

My old classmate Naomi posted this comment on my last post on Facebook:


I am not sure what the vegan population is like in China, but in America, I get the sense that a lot of the vegan movement is a response to the industrial farming techniques of modern agriculture (even calling it "farming" and "agriculture" seems insincere and inaccurate, since what these words abstractly mean to most people is so far from the reality as to be completely unrelated and unrecognizable). I don't think there was a vegan movement before factory farms (the term was coined in 1944). Of course, vegetarian diets have been around for centuries, usually as part of a religious practice that advocates non-violence towards animals.

I don't think you can separate modern vegetarian and vegan culture from factory farming, and the key moral issues surrounding factory farming have to do with quality of life, humane practices and humane slaughter (not to mention serious environmental and infectious disease issues). Yes, vegetarians and vegans are often adamant in their denouncement of any use of animals for food, but I believe the core of their outrage is fueled by inhumane practices. I do not think that animal rights activists would deface, destroy, or kidnap from farms that practiced humane raising and slaughtering of animals.

This is why I think that the moral argument for vegan or vegetarian diet is stronger in America than in a nation that does not primarily rely on factory farming (sadly, there aren't many, if any, nations out there that don't). I don't think you can accurately separate what most ethical vegan idealists say their reasoning is from the moral issues surrounding factory farming.


I don't think you can separate modern vegetarian and vegan culture from factory farming, and the key moral issues surrounding factory farming have to do with quality of life, humane practices and humane slaughter (not to mention serious environmental and infectious disease issues). Yes, vegetarians and vegans are often adamant in their denouncement of any use of animals for food, but I believe the core of their outrage is fueled by inhumane practices. I do not think that animal rights activists would deface, destroy, or kidnap from farms that practiced humane raising and slaughtering of animals. 
 This is why I think that the moral argument for vegan or vegetarian diet is stronger in America than in a nation that does not primarily rely on factory farming (sadly, there aren't many, if any, nations out there that don't). I don't think you can accurately separate what most ethical vegan idealists say their reasoning is from the moral issues surrounding factory farming.
 I posted this in response:
 I agree that this is certainly what motivates many vegans, but it is also true, as you said, that many vegans reject ANY use of animals by humans- certainly for food. Also, there are many ethical arguments that support this conviction, and, in my view, they often rely on the error that I describe in my post. The post was really about this kind of error in ethical reasoning, not about veganism per se.

But I also don’t think I agree with you when you say. “ I don't think you can accurately separate what most ethical vegan idealists say their reasoning is from the moral issues surrounding factory farming.” For one, I think there are people motivated to be vegans by the kind of arguments I criticize. Now, if the only choices where to be an undiscerning carnivore or a vegan, this would be OK, since getting people to adopt veganism would be good. But there is a real alternative to those concerned about factory farming: to buy animals products from farms that treat animals more humanely. And there are many people who do this out of an ethical conviction that factory farming is cruel.

This alternative has become much more mainstream in recent years, and I think it’s a force for good. Given that this choice exists, I think it is important to do exactly what you say we can’t: separate ethical arguments for veganism from arguments for more conscientious carnivory. One reason for this is because many people will simply never opt for veganism, but are much more likely to opt for buying pastured, humanely raised meat. Another reason is because, to the best of my judgment, a vegan diet is not actually more humane or eco-friendly compared to this alternative; there are many cases where pasturing animals in the right way is much better for an ecosystem than agriculture (obviously most vegans would dispute this, but I think they’re wrong). Another reason is that, again to the best of my judgment, a whole foods diet that includes pastured meat is more health-promoting than veganism, at least for most people.

So, for all these reasons, I would like for ethical vegans to consider that conscientious omnivorism is a better alternative to what they’re doing. And there are actually many vegans who have been persuaded by this argument. I also think it’s important to make the typical, carnivorous American more aware of the evils (yes, I’d call it that) of factory farming, and get them to support more traditional, ecological, healthful, and humane methods of meat production. But, like I said, my concern in the post was more about a certain kind of ethical reasoning that I think we’d be better off abandoning. But your point is an important one, and I probably should have elaborated on my views to make the argument clearer, so thanks for your response! :-)

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